Compilation of the Producer Utopia

In April 2023, Mad House Helsinki and the Suin päin Art Cooperative organised a discussion event called Tuottajautopia, where the deepening and future possibilities of cooperation between artists and producers in the free field, especially from the perspective of the performing arts, were discussed. Read a summary of the day's debate.

Ulrika Vilke and Pie Kär. Photo by Outi Järvinen.

Notes from the Tuottajautopia discussion event
12.4.2023, Centre for Performance Art - Eskus, Helsinki
The event was organised by Mad House Helsinki and the Art Cooperative Suin päin

The notes include the comments of the discussion moderators, artist Pie Kärin and producer Ulrika Vilke, as well as the comments of the participants in an anonymous chronological order. The notes have been compiled by Emmi Vainio, Executive Director of Mad House, with the help of Käri.

The event was attended by 45 people, including 5 organisers. Cultural producers, artists and representatives of producer and art school institutions working in the field of performing arts in the free field and structures were present. The main language of the event was Finnish. There was a simultaneous English interpreter, Anni Kaila, Chair of the Board of Suin päi.

(Ulrika and Pie present the main topic of the meeting)

HOW TO PROMOTE THE DEVELOPMENT OF PRODUCER-ARTIST COOPERATION IN THE FREE PLAYING ARTS FIELD?

(as background to the discussion, Pie and Ulrika share their starting points for organising the event)

Pie: The Producer Utopia was born out of an invitation from Pie and discussions at the board of directors of the art cooperative (made up of freelance artists and producers) Suin päin. Pie works as a choreographer, dancer and performance artist. Pie wanted to convene such a discussion to get to know the producers and to better understand how the free field works, how the field could work, how to work with producers as an artist, what the producer's job is and what the professional language is like. / Pie dreams of a producer-worker pair with whom to grow together in making art / Pie's key questions are. What could it be in practice? How do you midwife change?

Ulrika: Ulrika has done a thesis on the need for and the cooperation between producers. Ulrika hopes that the discussions of the day will give her concrete ideas about where we are going and what can be done with the resources we have / It is great to be in a space of collective thinking. There are not many opportunities like this in the field, where artistic production is the focus / The discussion is framed by a utopian orientation, aiming for positive change. In future thinking, it is essential to be aware of one's own assumptions in order to start working on them. What kind of artistic and productive collaboration is taking place now and how can we dream from the present?

(Warm-up questions)

Ulrika Pielle: What would be the optimal situation for Pie you in terms of collaboration between artist and producer?

Pie: I would hope to grow together and go towards a common goal. The work would be a common cause for both (artist and producer), with two areas of responsibility that overlap. One interesting meeting place is audience issues. How do you get the audience there? How are production issues, e.g. accessibility of spaces, also artistic issues? Today, everything is about growth and the questions of how to grow, what is ethical growth, are important. As a co-creator, the role is often a lonely one, doing it alone produces mistakes and it would be wonderful to share the responsibility of a supervisor, for example. Can you join us?

(comments from participants)

-Yes, it's a painful thing I've been wrestling with for years. Education plays a big role in this, because the relationships you build in your studies follow you throughout your life. There are no producer studies at the Theatre Academy (Teak).

-The curriculum has been extended to include a production component, and for example, the final choreography projects include a student producer.

-What is the concept of productivity in different sectors? For example, in music, a producer is part of an artistic team. And is a publisher rather the same as a producer? Could there be large-scale production houses in the future, where commercial and non-commercial producers from different sectors work together?

-The producer-artist partnership is a luxury idea. In reality, it may be possible to share one producer between dozens of artists. Do we have anything to share but money? Can we think about economy, work, sharing and giving in a different way?

 -If you don't know the producers personally, the collaboration between the producer and the artist is only defined by money. It would be wonderful if there were social dimensions to support and enable collaboration. 

-As an artist, I also wanted to train in production. A collective of artists and a producer has started at the University of the Arts. The roles can be mixed. For example, in public work it is a great help to have both skills. How does being a producer affect your artistic work? Is there also a risk of negative effects? You need both languages.

-There are many challenges from an educational perspective. The differences between the various artistic and cultural disciplines are considerable. How can we bring together students of art and production so that there is deep collaboration?

-Teak has a lot of producers working and the school is a big production machine, which doesn't change overnight so we can increase the number of pairs of workers.

-Esim Teak's Producer Services contain a wealth of skills and knowledge, but their expertise does not necessarily inform the field outside the institution. 

-At the first Humak, there was no art present in the production studies. There is a pottery. Students have the desire and passion to be involved in artistic discourse, but how do you get involved? Can the pottery be broken?

-There is a difference between producing art and the event industry. Should the studies be in different schools?

(the moderators will introduce the second theme)

Pie for Ulrika: What is the best kind of production-industrial cooperation?

Ulrika: In the best case, both of them will be able to work professionally so that they both support each other and can do what they are good at. Not so that the producer takes care of the artist's business. It's important to have a dialogue. There are needs on both sides. However, this is often challenging because of time constraints, for example. The producer often gets involved quite late, even though the nature of the work is proactive and planning.

(comments from participants) 

-What is a producer's work identity? Does he or she get involved in the project even if the funding is not yet known, as artists do. Are producers interested in asshole work?

-Is it a collaboration or a commission? The partners jointly own the work, while the contractor is an employee of the other and owns less of the work. In addition, the relationship between the producer and the work is greatly influenced by the stage of the project at which he or she is called in.

-The issue of ownership and the right to art is important for artists and producers alike. If the experience of ownership is strong, then the producer will probably work for free, but the producer must be involved from the beginning, as part of a common bubble.

-Working in a team and working in an association are very different from the producer's point of view.

-Talking about ownership leads to questions of mandate: who decides, where the boundaries of the job description lie, who defines the process?

-In Estonia, Viljandi has an art school with a good mix of everything from art to production. It's a place where you can experiment and grow together.

-Ownership is created within a certain time window and can be a long process. What skills does it take for ownership to grow and be strong? Governance and management are important here. And what do you do when the money comes in....how is ownership then distributed? How to manage it fairly? For example, the Kone Foundation now has a person to resolve disputes that arise in working groups.

-production work is also done for free, through ownership.

-Studying art in the Netherlands allowed you to get to know different roles (producer, technician, etc.). Studies and student grants made this possible. But when you move into the world of work, you have to have money, so the focus easily shifts and narrows. But if you had a basic income, you could move more freely from one role to another.

(moving on to the next topic)

Pie for Ulrika: What is the image of the producer in the free field at the moment?

Ulrika: The image of the producer is changing in my view. The image of the super-producer has been cultivated in the past. Producers need to blow up this image. They want to work with a more precise definition, based on their own skills and strengths. Many want to strengthen their position as experts. Personality has a big influence on this definition.

(comments from participants)

-In the 1990s, producers defined their own work from collective agreements and employment contracts onwards. Today, producers do not have the freedom to limit the content of their work. Often today when you look for producers you are really looking for managers when you look at the scope of the job description.

-How do we have a field where there is more work than money to pay for work? How is it that almost all of our structures and even individuals operate in such a way that more is being done than is being paid for? What is our understanding of art and work when we collectively and individually participate in such a work/money culture?

-I asked in my thesis on cultural producer studies, what is the job of a producer? What is essential in the job? Producers' own definition of their job also varies.

-You are looking for a producer because you don't want to give power, but you need someone to apply for funding. 

-Both in the structures of established arts organisations and in the free field, there is a situation where one part-time worker is doing the work when there should be three. It is easy for the plots to get mixed up. The workload is really big. There is a lack of money in the field.

-I wonder about the validation of my own skills. Who defines when you can be a producer?

-In Estonia, for example, marketing is a job in itself. In Finland, this is often combined with the producer's job description.

-The producer is more of an operational player, while marketing and communication are really creative work.

-There are recent changes in producer training. It is no longer about superheroes, it is about passion and love of content. The BA level is strongly operational and includes at least project management, communication, team leadership, multidisciplinary teamwork, well-being, articulating and validating your own competences. The Master's level trains specialists. It is also generally taught that it is not worth getting a job if you have to do the work of five people, and that you should always ask for a salary.

-It is often difficult for an artist to find a producer at the beginning of the process because you can't promise anything. Once there is money, it is often too late (in terms of artistic-production collaboration) because the artistic work on the project has started before the funding is available. Producers cannot apply for a grant. What if freelance producers had their own grants?

-The artistic work begins - and ownership is created - before there is funding.

-The Produforum project in Metropolia enabled students to become producers of the free field. Artist Annika Tudeer (Oblivia) guided Metropolia students and many of the free groups that were starting up found a partner through this project. This project has ended, but was a good model.

-In terms of marketing, the arts sector competes with the commercial sector for producers' skills. The art sector is in a wage drought, so not many people are attracted to it.

-Talented producers are perhaps more eager to ask for a salary straight away, which is also a good thing. 

-The additional income could allow for a different kind of work, as you would not have to apply for a basic salary but directly for art.

-It would be great if there were date days for producers and artists!

-The process of applying for a grant can be reorganised. It's absurd that everyone is applying all the time. Some could apply and give to others.

-You could leave out the titles on common date walks. Think dramaturgically, not as a producer-artist division.

-Notes coming soon too Sufficiently institutionalised event on the stage of Helsinki City Theatre's Contemporary Performance (HKT).

-What can be the role of producers in the wider development of the free field? How can we work together, what is the producers' utopia, what is the producers' contribution to the development of the field? An extension of the producer perspective is desirable.

-In the 80s and 90s, group theatres, Zodiak, etc. were born. A whole new production structure emerged, which was political and artistically justified at the time. What is the form of this time, in an ecological crisis, under pressure from the right? Broader shoulders, digital forms, multiple venues for performances, commercial and non-commercial together?

-In Sweden, for example, support is available for touring, so performances can be sold and works have longer life cycles, wider networks and larger audiences. When (tour-supported) performances can be sold to various subscribers, it is possible to operate without grants and to keep a producer employed.

-What can organisations do? For example, Puistokatu 4 has a "take a researcher to lunch" concept. HKT and the Contemporary Performance Stage have succeeded in building a bridge between the free field and the institutional theatre. How can we work with these examples?

-How can established players, such as festivals, create the jobs that the free sector needs?

-Can a producer be the project leader? Could a producer apply for a grant for a project in his/her name? How can producers' work be organised in relation to, for example, time constraints? What is a utopia where the producer is involved in the process from the beginning?

-How much to pay the producer? Create a commission/provision on the application (e.g. 2-5%) of the grant goes to the producer.

-Zodiak and Tanssille ry has arranged dates for artists and producers, but not many producers have turned up. But let's not give up. We have to keep trying and organising until things pick up.

-The dream would be a platform for producers, a support community for producers. Pirkanmaa Creative Producers is one example.

-What would be a business-as-not-usual in arts, finance and culture policy?

-This debate needs to continue. Next time, representatives of foundations that fund the performing arts should be involved.

 ***TAUKO***

(Participants were divided into small groups. The groups discussed one or a few issues of interest to the group. Then, one group at a time presented their questions to the others to open the discussion.)

Producers Group 1: The money issue. What could be new funding models for producers? Personal grants? How could VOS houses, for example, get space? Pressure needs to be put on cultural policy, how should this be done?

-Who is responsible for teaching and how does mentoring continue after studies? How to get involved in a particular scene e.g. if you come from another art field? Kisälli model?

-Contemporary Dance Festival on the Move in November e.g. has offered internships and mentoring for producers. It is important to define the content to be taught in the contracts.

-There is not enough peer support for producers. Could institutions do more to support the free sector, enable something with a little help?

-How should free sector advocacy be developed?

-Eskus is an example of an actor that also partly acts as a platform. Eskus has a shared office space for employees of in-house member organisations. Shared offices for producers would be good for the sector. Collaboration creates community.

The Schools group: How to promote cooperation between educational institutions? How to identify competences? Why does an artist start working for a producer, but rarely does a producer start making art? Not entirely equal. 

-AMK production students are constantly in the professional field, but during their education there are few parallel relationships with students from other fields, such as the arts. What would production students do at Teak when the professional production environment already exists there? How would a student producer's training fit into this structure?

-Are we being active on the ground in the direction of education? Contact can be made with educational institutions to ask if there is an interested student producer for an internship in their own art production.

-The cultural producer students in Metropolia do a lot of work-based tasks, where theory and production form a competence-developing whole. Towards the end of their studies, students complete a 6-month work placement. Also, actors in the field of performing arts can actively contact Metropolia and offer small projects or internships to our students. An important part of a work placement is a competent supervisor, who can guide the work and develop skills. An artist can be an internship supervisor if he or she is able to supervise production tasks. The recommended internship rate is the TAKU (Trade Union for the Arts and Culture) internship rate.

-What would be an appropriate title if not producer? Spartan, manager....?

Producers Group 2: How to create a partnership between producers and artists and what is stopping us? Why should the artist pay the producer and not the other way round? Why should artists be allowed to have needs but not producers?

-Could producers approach their work like curators, by making studio visits to get to know artists' work, etc. This is the practice among visual arts curators. Curators apply for money to put together and run an exhibition, for example, and invite the artists of their choice to be part of it.

-Is there a platform to share contact details of producers and artists? Producers do not usually have their own websites.

-With a one-size-fits-all approach, the producer gathers a "stable" of artists and bears the risk.

-The professional identity of the producer is more flexible than that of the artist and producers easily disappear from the sector for better working conditions, e.g. in the organisational field, etc.

-The artist becomes the architect of his own work. Personal grants define the work. Structures to support artistic activity are weak. Policy change (elections 2023) potentially posing further challenges to public funding for the arts.

-Where could we meet each other, where to build a social network?

-Can we meet on channels we already have (some etc.)? 

Artists Group 1: How can you give hope or job opportunities to others when you can't make it yourself?

-Alternative economies: what is alternative currency, e.g. mentoring? How to produce practices that decompete? What kind of art is made and produced in general?

-As a free producer, it is difficult to be available on a long-term basis because there is no funding to support it, e.g. a longer-term working grant for the producer.

-Would producers be uncomfortable if an artist called and asked for a coffee when they had no money?

→It's ok, but it's good that the producer also tells us about his interests.

-Why more money and audiences for the performing arts?

Producers/artists group: How can an artist be easier to produce? (How can an artist be more producible?) How to work and communicate with the audience? 

-Why should an artist be an employer? What does the artist learn in school in this context?

-It is important to protect artistic work, but the producer can help to create a world relationship with the work.

Artists Group 2: How can we think about the future (of art) if there is no future (of a viable planet)?

-How can we come together? Where has our power gone? How do we find our way out of powerlessness? Uniting outside formal alliances. Sharing dreams and deep desires is important.

-And instead of pairs of workers, we have a productive industrial SOUND or revolution!

(A final wrap-up led by Pee, at the end of which you could choose to utter a word or phrase that was left in the space without response or comment)

Final phrases:

-Where to go from here?

-Physical encounters

-Is middle-class art possible? Is middle-class production more possible than middle-class art?

-Art is free and does not require activism.

-Where are the audiences?

-Who is the public?

-What new structures are needed and how will they be created?

-What's stopping us?

-Is the producer-artist working partnership idea outdated?

-Where is the power of artistic connection?

-Why in this shithole country do we always have to start a debate about whether art is needed at all?

-How to build trust?

-Thank you.